Letters LXIV
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Hey Orange, hope this finds you well. I wanted to drop you a note about the recent goings on in my life. I quit smoking at the first of the year but picked them up again in May ( I guess that means I was a "dry smoker"? "smokeless smoker"? "still had a smoker's mind"? LOL) I'm quitting them again this morning — on my own power, much like I did when I quit taking the first drink. I had quit going to AA meetings for a while because I had to do it to get the last vestiges of the cult programming out of my head. I recently returned to the meetings for a couple of reasons. First, there are some good people that I really care for there. Second, and more importantly, there are a growing number of like minded people there who have seen through the lies and refuse to bow to the groupthink pressure. We keep going because we want to offer some real and solid advice to the people who are just beginning to get sober. The great thing is that there are some people who have only been exposed to the AA poison for a year or so who are starting to come around and wake up to the fact that they have been decieved. This has caused no end to the consternation of the old-timers in the group. What really cements things for the people who listen to me is how I tell them that the old-timers will caome and warn them about being around me because I am "spiritually sick" and other such slander. Hi again, Eric, It's good to hear from you again. Yes, please quit smoking again, and stay quit. The life you save may be more than just your own. I've been going back through the propaganda and debating techniques page this morning. Thanks again for putting such a valuable tool online for us. It has such great info for people looking for the truth about AA and for those of us who wish to expose the lies. I admit, though, that I have to use some of these same techniques at times. But when I use them and then demonstrate the parallel from the AA literature, the light bulbs begin to turn on! Yes. Sometimes I find myself in that situation too. By and large though, I find that I can get by with using only the good (honest, truthful, non-deceptive) ones. Another thing that I felt that I had to do in a meeting was to announce that if I ever heard of any sponsors telling someone to quit taking medication prescribed to them by a Doctor or Psychiatrist, then I would turn them in to the Attorney General's office for investigation of practicing medicine without a license. That got me some evil looks from the old-timers, but a lot of people came and thanked me for saying that. Apparently there is a lot more pressure to quit psychiatric medications than even I realized. Far out!! Givem' hell. Telling people not to take their doctor-prescribed medications is just so stupid — homicidally stupid, and pig-headed and obtuse and superstitious. I really enjoyed James' site, BlameDenial. I'm sorry that he feels the need to back out of the endeavor, but I truly hope he finds peace and happiness. My plans are to start writing my experiences of being indoctrinated into 12 step cultism and my recovery from the 12 steps, probably in a blog type of forum. I have a politcal blog that draws a small amount of traffic, but I know how to get quick bursts of hits when needed. I think that the more things like that we can get out there with the truth in them, the more people can be reached and helped. James is back at it. He decided not to quit the project after all. He has new videos up too. If you would be interested in starting a message board for the orange papers site, I would be glad to help. It can be done free of charge on proboards or something like that. Funny coincidence — I've been thinking the same thing. I know that there is some popular free software for doing it out there; it's just a matter of find it and install it. There was something like a message board on my previous host but I never used it. After the experience with Rick Ross and his "forum", it occurred to me that I could do a better job of it just by not censoring people. Have a great day, enjoy your waterfowl and sunshine, and know that there are legions of people grateful to you.
Eric A. F.
[2nd letter from Eric:]
Date: Wed, August 9, 2006 4:35 pm Hey Orange, hope your day was great. I've started my blog that I mentioned in my email this morning, The title is "Recovering from Recovery" and can be found at http://freedomfrom12steps.blogspot.com/. I'll put up a link to your site in the side bar. Thanks again for all the work you've done to bring the truth about AA out in the open. You've been an inspiration to myself and many others.
Eric A. F. Well thanks for the compliment, and good luck with your blog. And have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "Laughter is the best medicine, ** and it's cheaper. ** == Victor Borge ![]()
It takes a lot of guts to tell the truth about these folks.
Hi David, Thanks for the compliment. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "When in the company of deluded people, ** keep your own counsel." == Buddha ![]()
Dear Orange, I felt a need to write again just to express a bit of gratitude and appreciation for all the work you've put into this project. I had really been close to suicidal despair though long-term sober and drug-free because I felt so ostracized, discredited and belittled in AA as one of the few people who dared to think and speak for himself "in the rooms" locally. You can't win if you take part in this AA thing, you are always in the wrong if you disagree with, or object to, the "program". The AA hard-liners try to rob you of any credit for remaining sober by re-defining sobriety in some nebulous pseudo-spiritual way. It is very encouraging to see that the tide seems to be turning and there are intelligent and feeling people putting up a resistance to this totalitarian control. I used to think that AA was essentially a well-meaning organization, if a little misguided in some ways. Now I'm not so sure. The more one looks into it all, the more dubious it all seems.
Take care, Hi Andy, Thanks for all of the compliments, and I'm happy to hear that this web site helped you. That really makes it worth it. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** The finest structure can house the worst evil. ![]()
I have to start an alcohol treatment program which, will be requiring me to attend 4 AA meetings a week. I have 4 weeks to get a temp sponsor. Is there anything I can do or say to cause every potential sponsor to not want to be my sponsor? Hi Steve, Darn! I think I'm answering this too late to do you any good. But my first attempt would be to start telling the truth about A.A. — the whole truth, the whole history, and all of the details in the crazy history of Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, and all of the untrue things that Bill wrote in the Big Book. Few true-believer oldtimers can handle that. Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Telling lies about recovery isn't funny, and ** it isn't spiritual, and it isn't okay. ![]()
If you are the guy who wrote the orange-papers, I have a question for you: How did you get and stay sober? I tried to cut back and then quit with the help of my doctor. Did not work for very long. Then a fun-filled family intervention and a couple nights stay in detox followed by months of AA meetings didn't keep me sober. Then after having months of sobriety and a few lapses wound me up in a treatment center, I'm back in AA hoping for something, anything to keep me sober. I've tried Smart, but the online meetings are slow, tedious and boring. I know the vast majority of people who quit do it on their own. I read Pete Hamill's memoir "A Drinking Life" and he just quit one day. I read and could not believe most of the crap in Jim Frey's "A Million Little Pieces". I read Caroline Knapp's "Drinking: A Love Story" and was amazed that she could quit drinking but not smoking and that killed her at 42 years old. Killed Bill, too. I've been to your site many times but I never got an answer. How'd ya do it? Steve Hello Steve, Thanks for the question. Basically, I just got sick and tired of being sick and tired, and decided that I didn't want to die that way. I had been really sick for a while, and despaired of ever recovering, and figured that the only thing to do was just stay stoned until the bitter end. And I got evicted and ended up out on the streets. And a doctor told me to quit drinking or I would die. And somehow, that convinced me to quit drinking. At first, I was thinking that I would quit for maybe 3 months, just long enough to get my feet back under me. But I was actually so sick that it got worse, and I came down with bronchitis and pneumonia, which prompted me to quit smoking too. At the three month point, it seemed like I was even sicker. Not really, but it seemed like it. What really happened was that my mind cleared enough to become aware of just how sick I really was, and how much cognitive impairment and memory loss I had suffered, and things like that. So I resolved to stay sober for 3 years. And then, at the three year point, I knew that I wanted to stay sober for a lot longer. Now I figure that it is for life. When you talk about "making it", I get the feeling that what you really mean is, "Not relapsing." As I just explained in another letter (here), it seems like recovery from addiction happens in two distinct phases.
Getting through phase one is hard, sometimes very hard, but it is still phase two that is deadly to so many people. They get fooled by that little voice yammering about how a little fun tonight will be okay, and they get sucked back into using something, and get readdicted. Read about the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. Understanding how that thing works has been a life-saver to me. Staying clean and sober is largely a matter of just not getting fooled any more — not believing the little voice that insists that just one will be okay.
Staying sober for years is really just a matter of not having one, right now. I have the advantage of 30 years of quitting smoking, and getting fooled by that little voice so many times. I finally just got hip to the trip and don't get fooled by it any more. And I have enough years of failure and readdiction to understand that "just one cigarette" really means smoking for another three years again, and "just one beer" really means drinking for another nine years. And I clearly understand, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that many more years of drinking and smoking would kill me. That makes it actually pretty easy to stay clean and sober. I simply decided that I don't want to die that way. It's not any fun. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** To ex-Congressman Mark Foley, who decided to hide in ** an alcoholism treatment center: "Alcohol Abuse doesn't ** need people like you besmirching its reputation." ** == a comedy routine on the Randy Rhodes Show.
Date: Mon, October 9, 2006 7:51 am Thanks for the personal response. I was wondering if I'd hear from you. The "Lizard Brain Addiction Monster" is spot on. That little addictive voice has been my downfall. I know where it's coming from now (damn my base brain). Now that I've been sober for 5 months, he talks to me once in awhile. I recognize the little bastard. I've been reading Stanton Peele's "Love and Addiction" and it's pretty interesting. Unfortunately for me, I've screwed up enough in the past that I'm going to have to go through the motions in AA for at least another 7 months to keep my wife happy. It's like being on probation even thought I've never been arrested for anything. The thing that really amazes me about AA is that the group actually worships alcohol like it's some kind of powerful entity. It's not. Hi again, Steve, Yes, right on. If you think about it for a while, the idea that a bottle of C2H5OH being more powerful than you are is absurd. Heck, I have so much power over it that I can even light it on fire and burn it and use it to heat up a cup of coffee. I have another alternative to AA for you: racingforrecovery.com. Todd Crandell was an addict for years and used AA to finally get himself sober. Now he's moved away from AA and has a program that doesn't follow the 12 steps. I met him recently and was impressed with what he had to say. He doesn't believe in powerlessness and neither do I. He doesn't believe in relapse. He believes in "rechoice". I like your website a lot. There's so much information on the splash page that it's kind of overwhelming. Keep on giving us the truth. Take care. steve b. Thanks for all of the compliments, and have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Programming today is a race between software engineers ** striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, ** and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better ** idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. == Rich Cook ![]()
Dear Sir, I have no idea what is the purpose of your article. Is it to argue with the validity of the 12 steps program" Or is to bash AA for its semi-religious character? Either way, the phenomenon of the "dry drunk" does not depend on the number of years one managed to live without alcohol, but it depends on the quality of their life. If its' shit and they fell miserable, they should go go back to drinking — at least they'll feel less miserable. From my own experience (and I'm not advocating AA, because I'm not a part of it) when it comes to recovery, you may stick your so called "will power" deep up your ass. It's pointless and a waste of one's time and energy.
The whole point of 12 steps (without all that semi-religious mumbo-
jumbo) is to deal with underlying issues of any dependency — which is
unresolved pain.
've been there, than that! Kris Hello Kris, I am not going to even waste my time responding to your accusations, because you are obviously not interested in learning the truth. You have chosen to devote your life to repeating superstitions and misconceptions, and angrily denouncing anyone who disagrees with you and challenges your erroneous beliefs. What a waste of a life. Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not ** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others; ** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool. ![]()
Hello Mr. Orange, I was wondering if you know how much money Bill Wilson made off of that movie based on him called 'My Name is Bill' or something like that. I was wondering, because I couldn't find that on your site. I used to be a member of the AA cult and well it made my life even worse then before I went to it. I will explain later what happened to me in AA. It was not positive at all. Hi Tim, Thanks for the letter and congratulations on your escape from the cult. That's an easy question to answer: Bill Wilson got no money from the movie "My Name is Bill W.", because he was long since dead. Bill Wilson died January 24, 1971, and the movie was made in 1989. William G. Borchert wrote the screenplay. If anyone got any royalties, it was probably him. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** If you persist in making criminals out of ** alcoholics and addicts, you will find that ** you have lots and lots of criminals. — Orange ![]()
Attended one more meeting tonight, and the topic was the ever popular, "The first drink gets you drunk." There were only about 15 people there and it still ran over the allotted hour. Most of the "sharing" by the members sounded like they were trying to convince themselves of the truth of this fact. Why else would they speak for 5 to 10 minutes on such an easily understood concept? Others seemed not to have integrated their personalities, and talked about their diseased minds (and some of these people had up to 10 years of "clean" time) lying in wait for them, running parallel to their recovery. All that needed to be said is, "Alcohol changes the way I look at the world, and today I have the resolve and choose to look life straight in the eye without alcohol". This aside I have found some very good friends in AA who have helped through some very trying times, when escape from reality looked good to me. For me its more about good people (and there are some assholes in a AA like anywhere) caring about one another. I had too many problems caused by my drinking, now my probems are real and I have people who help me. As for God I could write a seven page essay. Suffice it to say too many AA's use God as a cosmic aspirin. Agent Green Hi Agent Green, Thanks for the letter, and the story. And have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "Argue for your limitations, and sure ** enough, they're yours." == Richard Bach
[another letter from Charles K.:]
Date: Mon, August 14, 2006 2:39 pm Sat through another A. A. meeting today and I had to smile rather than grind my teeth as I heard many people use the catch phrase, "there are no such things as coincidences". If there are no coincidences then the meaning of the word is useless. In the extreme, to use such a phrase in the negative implies the word coincidence should not even exist. The sloppy thinking and trashing of the English language in A. A. never ceases to amaze me. Coincidence in my dictionary means the chance occurrence of 2 things at such a time as to seem remarkable. A.A.ers, for the most part, then jump to the conclusion that any chance remarkable occurrence, is a supernatural event. This is what most Religious Fundamentalists believe, that nothing happens by chance, everything is God's plan.
This form of thought in A.A. has a threefold purpose: In my opinion, complete dependency on God as a pain killer is a setup. We can turn our lives and wills over to the care of God all we like, but we still need to keep up our end of the bargain. I believe this is one reason for A.A.s rather dismal success rate. When we use God as a Cosmic aspirin we set the stage for a return to drinking, because when the pain comes asking God to remove it is unrealistic. The best I can do is to ask God to suffer along with me, and first I cope, then I heal. This hope helps me. Whatever helps you helps you, but when I encounter sloppy thinking, trashing of language, and superstitions I get my back up. In closing, I would like to say there are coincidences, but by using my God given powers to reason, to feel, and my intuitions I can make the most of the coincidences in my life. I cannot do this, by experience and personal choice, using alcohol. Agent Green P.S. No reason to respond if you decide not to. Also, feel free to use anything on your website. If I am a pain let me know and I'll stop e-mailing you. Until then I will keep writing to you about my opinion and observations of A. A.. Hello again, Agent Green, You aren't a pain at all. I like getting other people's observations. Thanks for the letter. You are right on the money with the observations about the A.A. attitude towards coincidences and the Fundamentalist religious attitude it reveals. And that attitude came straight from Frank Buchman's perverted cult religion, which was the precursor to Alcoholics Anonymous. This is the standard Big Book rap on coincidences:
And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation — some fact of my life — unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. And here is Marjorie Harrison's criticism of Buchmanism, the Oxford Group religious teachings, in 1934:
Here is another instance of the shallowness of thought and extremes of teaching of which the Group must be held guilty. In a booklet issued by the Group entitled The Guidance of God, there is a story of a three-year-old child taught to be quiet and listen to God's Voice. He looks up and remarks: "God says that you must eat more porridge this morning." Although the child is obviously reiterating an injunction of his mother's, this is put forward as a direct instance of Divine Guidance. Yes, really "stopping individual thought". Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** The man who does not read good books has no advantage ** over the man who cannot read them. ** == Mark (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) Twain 1835-1910 ![]()
Quite relevant, I think....
Thanks, Andrew, That's good, and yes, it's really relevant. I especially like "user-created reality". Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Gandalf said, "The demons of the darkness howl in ** pain when you shine the light of truth on them." ![]()
Narconon Exposed: Does Narconon work? — Studies Speaking of programs treating addicts which are supposed to have studies proving that they're effective, let's not forget the Scientology a-holes, Narconon. This webpage, at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/studies.htm, is off a website against these twits, whose homepage is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/, and webpage describing the organization at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/whatisnn.htm.
Okay, Sharen, Thank you for the information. Somehow, I am not surprised to find that Scientology's treatment program doesn't work any better than anything else (which means, "not much"). Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "You can fool all the people some of the time, and ** some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool ** all the people all the time." — Abraham Lincoln ![]()
...well, thank you Sir. I got sick and tired of being that way. But you taught me the way out quicker than anyone.
Anyways, whoever you are, I already made up my own
mind. I have had enough. I'm tired of drinking myself to death. Thanks again.
Mike Hi Mike, Thanks for the thanks, and congratulations on your escape from hell. And have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** One of the most sublime experiences we can ever have ** is to wake up feeling healthy after we have been sick. ** Rabbi Harold Kushner ![]()
Last updated 21 April 2015. |

