Letters CCCIII
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Date: Sat, April 21, 2012 3:13 pm (answered 26 April 2012) Dri Heaves posted in Orange Papers http://www.thefix.com/content/alcoholics-anonymous-wrong-negation9810 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-tompkins/alcoholics-anonymous_b_1383849.html
Is Alcoholics Anonymous Negativity-Based? To comment on this post, reply to this email or visit: Yep.
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** The devil gets more help from fanatics than fools. ** == Sam Chadwick ![]()
Date: Sat, April 21, 2012 5:50 pm (answered 27 April 2012) You have put together a lot of what I've been saying for YEARS! I AM an adult child of two alcoholics, and I've seen AA do nothing for my parents, nor Alateen and Alanon do nothing for me. My first knowledge of "The Ala--s" came about when I was 12 and removed from my mother's home due to her drinking. Years followed of AA for her, Alateen and Alanon for me โ all doing nothing because she CHOSE to drink the minute she was able to, and I had to make a life for myself, and no one in any group was offering me a scholarship or a job. That stuff I had to get on my own without their "help". Now, in my forties, and my mother is sitting in a nursing home with Korsakoff's Syndrome (wet-brain in AA parlance), social workers and nursing staff constantly barrage me with "ACOA" and "Alanon" literature... "so you can take care of yourself". Please. My life is only hindered by being the sole offspring of two irresponsible people. I've been otherwise successful. My life is only interrupted when I get a call that "mom's agitated, so we're going to have to medicate her", and "your dad's been arrested again, can you help?" No amount of "talking in group" or time spent changed my parents decisions, nor did it change the fact that I grew up on my own. Do I feel responsible? No. Never did. Never will. As an aside: I am not a teetotaler. I usually drink a glass of wine or two at night, and enjoy the occasional night of partying maybe twice a year. Feel free to use this on your site. Please let me know if you plan any edits. Thank you for getting the word out. -S Hello Sam, Thank you for the letter and the story. I'm glad to hear that you survived the nightmare and are doing well. I'm adding your letter to my list of A.A. horror stories. No edits necessary, other than abbreviating your last name and removing your email address. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "You don't realize how strong you can be until it is your only choice" ** == Avogadno ![]()
Date: Sun, April 22, 2012 3:46 pm (answered 27 April 2012) I've been going to an AA meeting for seven months. I relapsed last week and went to my Sunday meeting today, where, it seems, I had been seen by one member of that meeting buying alcohol during the week. Nobody challenged me, or discussed it with me... I could have been buying drink for a relative (not so, but could easily have been as we did have guests the previous week and did buy drink for them). I was shunned and ostracised. Is it the ultimate irony or the ultimate hypocricy for an alcoholic to be ostracised by Alcoholics Anonymous for drinking? It also breaks one of the cornerstone Twelve Traditions. Clearly, this is not an honest organisation, it is some kind of self-congratulatory cult that can do serious harm. You're welcome to publish this email without my personal address, of course. Hello David, Thank you for a candid letter. And I have to agree with you โ their attitude is all backwards. They should be flocking around the straying sheep and helping them. But the much-bragged-about "unconditional love" sure does disappear fast when somebody breaks the rules, doesn't it? They act like drinking alcohol is a contagious disease. And of course you loose all of your Brownie Points and status, and you have to start over collecting coins at Day 1 again. To change the subject, perhaps the correct word for your experience is not "relapse". In SMART, they call such an event a "lapse". One evening of drinking is not a full-blown relapse. (When I relapsed, I drank for 9 years, until the doctor told me that I was going to die. Not to brag like Crocodile Dundee, but now that is a relapse.) In SMART, the attitude is, "When you fall off of the horse, you just get back up on the horse and ride it again." And a lapse gives you the opportunity to examine your desires and your thinking. It can be a learning experience, and you can benefit from it. What were you thinking when you decided to go buy some alcohol? What did you want? What were your expectations of pleasure and consequences? How did your previous thinking lead to drinking? It might help to examine the list of "Lizard-Brain thoughts" at the end of this file: The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster. And if you want other people's thoughts and experiences with recovery, they are linked to here: How did you get to where you are? Have a good day and a good life now. And congratulations for continuing to work on your problem and get your life together, in spite of the lack of help. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** It is easy for men to talk one thing and think another. ** == Syrus 42 B.C. [The next letter from David is here.] ![]()
Date: Sun, April 22, 2012 7:19 pm (answered 27 April 2012) Hi and Happy Springtime, I hope all is well with you. Just wanted to drop you a note to say thank you for all you do to keep the website going. I found your site 6 years ago when I was confused and distressed โ after 10 years of AA meetings and very limited success in staying sober. I am sober now and free of AA for two years now โ the good news. I still smoke cigarettes โ the bad news โ but I will stop because I know that I can and I know that I want to feel better. Also, I don't want to suffer and die from a needless drug. I still visit your site to read the new letters and re-read some of your chapters. It has taken YEARS for me to get over the propaganda that had been drilled into my mind. When I relapse on cigarettes, I still hear myself saying "well don't stop too many things at one time โ you can still smoke for a while." What a bunch of crap. The effects of that propaganda โ powerlessness, etc., โ are still amazing to me. When I read some of the passionate letters from "steppers" (I don't know what else to call them, โ they believe in the 12 step program, I mean what else can I call them?) โ I think I just feel sadness. Then I get angry all over again โ for having been one of them. For having been duped, basically, for a long time. I am an intelligent person. But they addressed my intelligence very early on โ by telling me that I can be "too smart for this program." "Utilize โ don't analyze" and so forth. I occasionally wonder whether I would have stopped drinking earlier โ if I had not believed so deeply in the fact that I was powerless and had so many character defects. I can't prove that WOULD have happened. Who could? Anyway, these are just thoughts. I really just wanted to reach out to you and let you know that there are a lot of us. I can only speak for myself, of course, when I thank you for getting the truth out there and sticking with it for so many years. Something you said really resonated with me. You said that you were a hippie. etc., and that when someone wanted to change something... they would say, " Well you do it then and recruit whoever you need to get it done." I am paraphrasing your own words here, but you get it :-) My point is that you live by that adage โ and I am pretty impressed. Actually, I'm VERY impressed. It is a model for what I do and I appreciate it more than you know. BTW, I still love the pics of your geese and goslings โ your wonderful sober hobby. Music is my sober hobby โ and it rocks (so to speak:-)). Have a great day (as you always say), Kimmarie Hello Kimmarie, Thanks for the letter and the compliments. And congratulations on your sobriety and freedom. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. I seem to remember you writing before, years ago. Is this you, here? For some odd reason, the name "Kimmarie" sticks in my head.
You say so much that I agree with. I won't just repeat it all. But I have to mention that,
yes, teaching people that they are powerless is very damaging. It is the exact opposite of
a true "self-help" group. In a real self-help group, you teach people, And yes, quitting smoking makes you feel so much better. And it improves your health in so many ways โ even indirectly. By "indirectly", I mean things like exercise and activity. For the last several days, I rode my bicycle to the Fernhill Wetlands to photograph the new goslings nearly every day. Back when I was smoking, I just never did anything like that. I had not been on a bicycle in nearly 30 years when I got that bike last year. But now I ride my bike everywhere (no car at all), and get lots of exercise. Which is good. The doctor pointedly asked me about my level of physical activity during the annual checkup. And I was happy to tell him about my level of activity, and the good results from my medical tests showed it. And two friends who were not active just suffered for it. One came down with diabetes, and the other died of a heart attack. Not fun. Something that really helped me to quit smoking and stay quit was understanding The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster. Many of the crazy "Lizard thoughts" in the list at the end of the file are about smoking, like "Oh, we can have just one now. We have it under control. Just one will be okay." I got fooled by that garbage for 30 years, but I'm not getting fooled any more. Oh, and about the hobbies, yes, photography is fun. Especially photographing wildlife. And it's a good reason to get out in the fresh air and sunshine. Coincidentally, my son and his wife are into bird watching. I tell him that I'm into it too, but I like to collect souvenirs: pictures of them. And I love music too, and have several guitars that I plunk on, but alas, I'm better at photography than music. Sir Paul McCartney is in no danger of me replacing him. Have a good day and a good life now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "Every day, one should hear some fine music, see a ** beautiful picture, and speak a few reasonable words." ![]()
Date: Mon, April 23, 2012 6:53 am (answered 27 April 2012) Hi Orange, One of my pet peeves about AA is how they just made up a new definition of the word "insanity." In AA they tell you, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Baloney. Here's the real definition of insanity:
insanity [in-san-i-tee]
I suspect they did this to somehow fit this into their crazy vision of recovery. I can't get over how this entirely made up definition has become "fact" simply because it's been repeated over and over so many times. We should not allow the steppers to reinterpret our language to make it fit their cult lexicon.
I feel better now LOL. Hello again, Bill, Thanks for the letter. Quite right. They redefine words and load the language. That is a common cult characteristic, and Dr. Robert J. Lifton included it in his list of brainwashing techniques (here).
Here is the Cult Test question on that item:
In addition, the word "insanity" has special meaning in A.A., because it was one of Dr. Frank Buchman's redefined words, and Bill Wilson just copied the language from Frank Buchman. In Buchmanism, people who lived their own lives as they chose, rather than being a slave of Dr. Frank Buchman, were "insane", and only the people who lived lives that were "Guided by God" (read: guided by Frank), were "sane". Then Buchman had things like, "The Five Procedures of the Sane" and "The Six Practices of the Sane" which Bill Wilson rewrote into the 12 Steps. So the word "sanity" has been redefined in Buchmanism/A.A. for a long time. Incidentally, the word "sanity" in Step 2 has that double meaning. To beginners, the "insanity" was drinking so much alcohol that it was killing you. But to A.A. true believers, the "insanity" was living a life not Guided by God. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** Oh Great All-Powerful Winnie-the-Pooh, ** There's no Higher Power quite like you. ** Upon my knees I humbly pray ** that you keep me sober just for today. ** And now the whole wide world can see, ** that I've been restored to sanity! ** Amen. ** == John ![]()
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Date: Tue, April 24, 2012 10:41 am (answered 28 April 2012) Hi Orange, Just read your story in SOS's latest newsletter (Spring, 2012 edition). PLEASE do these two things: 1.) Put it on the "OP Forum" โ ASAP! 2.) Put it on the "OP site" โ ASAP! Yours is the FIRST non-"drunkalogue" I have ever read. Sounds like you have had an interesting life! You are an excellent example of SECULAR sobriety attainment! Don't ever forget that, and keep doing what you do-the "Orange Papers" especially! Best wishes, John McC. P.S. โ YES, put this letter on the "OP" in your "Letters" section! ;) Hi John, Thanks for the compliments. Just a minor note, I found it in the Winter edition that is featured on the front page of the SOS web site. But for what it's worth, here it is:
Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved ** but a reality to be experienced. ** == Aart Van Der Leeuw * ** Each moment of our life, we either invoke or destroy our dreams. ** We call upon it to become a fact or we cancel our previous instructions. ** == Stuart Wilde P.S.: My slogan-slinging child-raping Stepper counselor was just rearrested for failure to register as a sex offender. The story is here. ![]()
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[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters303.html#Linda_J ]
Date: Mon, April 23, 2012 10:20 pm (answered 28 April 2012) Meant to tell you, โ the day you replied to me, our morning news show here carried a story about boot camps for Australia. This was being peddled by a one time rock star Angry Anderson โ a biker looking guy who would make bikers ashamed, because he is an Ultra Right conservative! He felt he had all the answers and was backed by a Liberal (would you believe that our Right Wing party is called liberal?), politician who felt these camps could be run by 'ex-military' types... I rang the station and told them to do some research on US boot camps where the idea got started, and at least put up what could go very wrong. They didn't. Why spoil a good story when you have a bunch of rotten kids that 'need discipline'. What a world. What a life form we are. Linda. Hi again, Linda, Yes, the range of the human race โ from devilish to angelic, from moronic to genius โ is incredible. Hopefully, we can still get the word out. We just have to keep at it. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** "Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly gratifying to the abuser, ** in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. ** Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups and treatment." ** โ Charles Bufe ![]()
Date: Tue, April 24, 2012 4:53 pm (answered 28 April 2012) Ray Smith commented on Kate Latham's post in Orange Papers. Did you see that "underearners anonymous" link I posted?: To comment on this post, reply to this email or visit: Hello again, Ray, Yes, isn't that a laugh? Now you can go to 12-Step meetings and confess that you don't earn much money because you are such a jerk. Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** If you make money your god, it will plague you like the devil. ** == Henry Fielding (1707โ1754) ![]()
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters303.html#Meatbag ]
Date: Thu, April 26, 2012 3:01 pm (answered 28 April 2012) I don't doubt in the least some people are just evil. The medical model does damage to people with disabilities in many ways. Lumping in evil people with people with mental illnesses is just one such way. How is the latter group supposed to get much in the way of civil rights or be treated as a human being when they're associated with the former group, especially when they're likely to be victims of the former group? There is also nothing psychiatry can do for evil people, since there is no cure for evil, though some evil people do reform. "Big Nurse" is an apt comparison. And I found Gas Light creepier than any horror movie I've ever seen. Slashers are fun, but the monsters are never as scary or realistic as Paul Mallen. Sorry to hear about your friend that got arrested for having marijuana. That had to have been a horrifying experience. Have a good day. I hope the weather is still nice. No snow here in the south, but it's getting chilly. Hi again, Meatbag, I have to agree. Sentencing sex offenders and violent criminals to A.A. meetings (like here), just lumping them all together, makes it even more difficult for alcoholics to get any help or respect. It also makes the A.A. meetings even more dangerous. Never mind the fact that the 12 Steps don't work anyway, now people have to protect themselves from the other people at an A.A. meeting. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, ** no matter which side he's on." ** == Joseph Heller, Catch 22, 1961 [The next letter from Meatbag is here.] ![]()
Last updated 19 November 2014. |








