Letters CCLVII
|
Date: Thu, August 18, 2011 10:05 pm (answered 20 August 2011) I'm not sure if you've heard, but the original manuscripts of the "big book" have been published. I regularly attend AA, and I laughed a little bit when I read some of the things you listed as "cult" signs — I have seen some people do those things before. There are undoubtedly people who show up to AA who subscribe to some pretty absurd ideas. I (unfortunately) hear people mistakenly claim that the "big book" was written by bill and bob — when it was actually a collaboration of the first 100 or so members, heavily edited and modified by the leading doctors and specialists on alcoholism from that time, and also reviewed and edited by various clergy and spiritual gurus. It wasn't the work of one man by any means, and it wasn't divinely inspired either — it's a shame some misguided people say such things. I don't plan to sway your opinion on AA, I just want to take a minute to provide my own perspective, since I felt some of the things you wrote weren't quite a fair representation. Hello Brandon, Thanks for the letter. Yes, the Big Book was a collaboration of many people. It is described here. As far as the accuracy of some of the stories in the book: it's not a math book, so due to the nature of the subject matter, it can't be 100% factual. It's a combination of biography, text book, and history book (among other things). By nature, history is an accepted amalgam of what actually transpired — all "history" books in the world have questionable facts in them, and many of the biographies I've read were embelished despite their non-fiction classification. Basically what I am saying is that the AA "big book" is no different than other history or biographical books in this respect. Hell, the "big book" is actually more factual and convincing than some science books — try reading about string theory.... Although... I've heard varied other things, some of which make me shake my head. Some people definitely sound eerily brainwashed and use nothing but "group speak" — which I try to avoid. Some people also have religious-like devotion to every word in the AA literature. However, I don't really consider these people any different than the evangelicals who claim the bible to be literal and factual. These people can be found in any organization — religious or otherwise. I could even (convincingly) make a case that military organizations encourage the same sort of zealous support for the government. Once again, I don't think AA is really exceptional in this respect. It's just another organization that's got some very fervent members. I think it's also important to note that many who come to AA have other mental illnesses besides alcoholism. One thing I heard in a meeting once — "we're all here because we're not all there". On the whole, I think your analysis was very thorough and mostly factual. The interpretation of the facts seems a bit critical and I think it's apparent that you've got a grudge against AA. However, I noticed a couple things that you did get "wrong" and that don't really jive with the cult theory.
-Brandon Have a good day, Brandon. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** The principles of Washington's farewell address are still sources ** of wisdom when cures for social ills are sought. The methods of ** Washingtons's physicians, however, are no longer studied. ** == Thurman Arnold [The next letter from Brandon_D is here.] 
Date: Tue, August 2, 2011 3:54 am (answered 21 August 2011) Hi Orange The following link refers to a company called Priory Lodge Health Care, which is, in my opinion, aggressively taking over community and residential care of society's most vulnerable members in the UK, without, I believe, proper open and informed consultation with their clients (personally I think unwitting customers would be a better term), their friends, familes and advocates and the general public. The vulnerable people who have little choice but to fall into their hands include: 1) The elderly, including dementia sufferers 2) The mentally ill 3) The mentally diabled 4) Addicts and alcoholics in 12 step rehabs. I have only recently discovered that my local community mental health resource centre through which the mentally ill must access psychiatric and therapeutic care in the community and in residential facilites is actually run by this company, which appears to be but part of a larger commercial entity called the Priory Group. I believe this is a sharp lesson in just how complacent we have been in the UK over the stealthy intrusion of an unholy alliance between big business and steppism in the pursuit of money, power and control. When the same group that forces those with addiction problems into 12step rehab gains control of mental health care I think it's time to be very concerned: The following is (in part) a front for promoting steppism, in my view. Priory Lodge Healthcare Ltd run my local "Community Mental Health resource centre". They also run residential homes and 12 step treatment centres. They run residential homes for the mentally disabled and I believe they also run homes for the elderly. We've been too complacent about the covert influence of steppism in the UK. Hello Martin, Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, your link didn't come through the email. But a search found: — which does appear to be the company that you are talking about. Yes, I see a lot of P.R. fluff about how nice they are to old people and the mentally ill. I agree that it is chilling to have Steppers pretending to be such compassionate care-givers. I think that people who sell 12-Step treatment should be put in prison for fraud. Allowing them to also sell mental health care to sick people is really over the top. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** One of the most striking differences between a ** cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives. ** == Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910
Date: Fri, July 29, 2011 7:25 pm (answered 21 August 2011) My newest published article Ten Tips to Change Your Drinking Habits Harm reduction offers a positive and non-dogmatic approach to alcohol problems which can appeal to people who would never consider AA or a rehab program. Whether you want to be a safer drinker, cut back, or quit drinking entirely, harm reduction will... Okay Kenneth, I'll give this a plug. Whatever works... Whatever helps. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. ** == Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910
Date: Sat, August 20, 2011 4:05 pm (answered 23 August 2011)
Thanks ao , it's midnight here in uk , so will go on forum tomo Hello again, P., Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm not really in the guru business but I'll be happy to answer any questions as best I can. Yes, A.A. can be habit-forming. I don't like to over-use the word "addiction", because withdrawal from alcohol or heroin is a whole different world than withdrawal from A.A. Nevertheless, cult withdrawal can be painful and disorienting. And if you want a piece of advice for today, it is to work on staying in the here and now more. Just stay here, now. Don't think about the past, don't worry about the future, don't think about other places and other times. Just keep your awareness focussed in the here and now. Of course you won't succeed. Your awareness will soon get dragged away by some thought or memory. When you find that has happened, you just drag your awareness back here and try again. It's a work in progress. It takes years. It takes a lifetime. Do not criticize yourself for losing the here and now. That is counter-productive. Do not find fault with yourself, or think that you are not very good at it. Just keep coming back to the here and now. You can do that exercise all day long, anywhere. One of the side effects of staying in the here and now is that it minimizes the effects of a bad past. If you dwell on the past, it gets a greater grip on you. You will remember and feel the pain more. If you focus on the here and now, your presence and sanity increase, and the past fades away. So have a good day now. Oh, and forums cannot leave viruses. Well not usually. It would take something like a specially-modified picture with a virus in it, and there aren't any such things on my system. Or it would take a malicious script. And I don't have any of them either. And yes, I've heard of the Orange phone company. They have a tiny operation in the USA. I actually got a photograph of a "Powered By Orange" advertisement on the side of an electric train. But I haven't seen them lately. I think they got squeezed out. Now if someone would please squeeze out Qwest (which is a very dishonest phone company in the western part of the USA). About AO meetings: I've thought about it, but I think that the existing organizations like SMART and SOS are doing just fine. I want to encourage and grow them, rather than go into competition with them for members. Have another good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** ** During the height of the Cold War, the spiritual teacher ** Ram Dass was asked whether the world was facing a nuclear ** Armageddon or, as some were prophesying, a "new age" ** of peace and love and deeper awareness. ** Ram Dass said, ** "I used to think I should have an opinion on this. But ** as I examined it, I saw that if it's going to be Armegeddon ** and we're going to die, the best thing to do to prepare for ** it is to quiet my mind, open my heart, and deal with the ** suffering in front of me. And if it's going to be the new age, ** the best thing to do is quiet my mind, open my heart, and ** deal with the suffering in front of me." ** Is the moral calculus any different today?' ** == From Sy's notebook, 'The Sun' magazine, October 2009
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters257.html#P2 ]
Date: Mon, August 22, 2011 2:06 pm (answered 23 August 2011) Hello Orange,
Hi Terrance I am a bit of a fan lol , but not in a silly way anyhow thanks your papers and the forum is helping
on a sadder note, its only really hit me last 2 nights , the truth that it thanks Pip, I called myself Pip for we are all pips of the orange lol
im P from London ,who wrote u ages ago on the OP ,i got a similar home to THANKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS :) Hello again, P., Don't be down on yourself for having been a member of a cult for a while. We can only learn as fast as we can learn. Sometimes things just happen because it was pretty inevitable. So now, back to the here and now. Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young sang a great song:
Do not let the past And have another good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** The secret of health for both mind and body is ** not to mourn for the past, nor to worry about the future, ** but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly. ** == Buddha
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters257.html#Amy_E ]
Date: Sat, August 20, 2011 6:27 pm (answered 23 August 2011) Orange: You misread me. I read your whole reply this time. I said I hardly go to meetings; I still do sometimes. Okay, Amy, Thanks for the clarification. I still do believe that you are keeping yourself sober. "Hardly going to meetings" isn't doing it for you. Nobody but you holds your hand every Saturday night. I quit through a long process which involved AA. I know that I did not quit without it. It's my life, don't tell me what happened in my life. I was there! I also quit through a process that involved A.A. I had a cocaine-snorting child-molesting Internet child pornographer "counselor" lecturing us about how we had to have a "higher power" in our recovery programs, and then he sent us to at least three 12-Step meetings per week. I quit the 12-Step dance as soon as I learned about SMART. Ten years later, I have 10 years of sobriety. My crazy counselor went to prison for two counts of criminal sexual penetration of a minor, child pornography, and possession of cocaine. He just got out a couple of years ago. Although A.A. was "involved in" my recovery, I do not give it any credit for my good health now. What A.A. really gave me was a refresher course in how cults work, and for that, I am grateful. AA is not now and never was a religion. Baloney. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. A.A. is a religion now, and it always was. Half of the 12 Steps talk about God, for Heaven's sake. Bill Wilson even wrote in the Big Book:
At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. That is a religion. Many AAs quit smoking using the 12 steps. Oh really? How many is "many"? The A.A. and N.A. meetings that I went to had more smokers than an opium den. I am still waiting to hear why you are so worked up about this — there has to be a story there. I told you, it is a despicable crime to foist ineffective quack medicine on sick people and lie to them about how well it works. That's the story. And I don't think you have the statistics to back up much of what you say-for example, who took that poll of how many AA's smoke? Do you know? I don't. I know many who don't, I know many who do. But I do not have statistics and I don't think you do either. Amy Now this is another form of denial. All that you have to do is go to A.A. meetings and see for yourself. (That is a form of statistics. Observation produces statistics.) If you have been going to A.A. meetings for 15 years, then you have seen both the smoking meetings, which they pretty much all used to be, and the newer non-smoking meetings where everybody runs outside as soon as they can get a smoke break. I'll have to look around for some formal studies of smoking in A.A. I know I've seen some such statistics, but I don't remember where it was. P.S.: Speaking of statistics, you still have not answered the question about what percentage of the newcomers to A.A. get 10-year coins. Or 5-year. Or even 1-year. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. ** I know because I've done it thousands of times. ** == Mark Twain (American Humorist, Writer and Lecturer. 1835—1910)
Date: Sun, August 21, 2011 6:21 am (answered 23 August 2011) Hello, I watched some of your utube videos and read some of your website last night after trying to hit two meetings unsuccessfully with my four year old. I feel like I'm addicted to AA and want to stop going. However, I am afraid to stop because I have heard over and over for 14 years that I will drink again. Is there some type of online community where I can chat with people who have successfully left AA and did not drink? I am so fucking tired of trying to get to meetings. I am a single Mom and trying to juggle it all is exhausting. Hello Jennifer, Thanks for the question, and you definitely came to the right place. There are LOTS of online meetings and chat groups for people who want non-cult recovery.
By the way, those aren't my videos. They are done by a couple of guys by the names of James and Mike, who also go by the name of "BlameDeNile". I'm planning to do some videos, when I get all of the software tools together, but my first videos will be about cute little goslings. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep ** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol, ** and that your will power is useless, is not ** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged. ** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.
Date: Sun, August 21, 2011 6:47 pm (answered 23 August 2011)
What do you have to replace AA that works better? Hello Roxanne, Since A.A. does more harm than good, and kills more alcoholics than it saves, we don't need anything to replace A.A. No help, no program, no treatment, nothing, will still be better than A.A. You can sit on a seashore and watch the sun set, and that will be better than A.A. But there are organized better things available. I just reprinted the list in the previous letter, here, so check it out. And have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Alcoholics Anonymous is not a "self-help group", it is ** an "elf-help group". You pray to a doorknob or a bedpan ** or a "god" or a "group of drunks" or some other strange ** "higher power", and it will supposedly keep you sober. [The next letter from Roxanne_B is here.]
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters257.html#Mike_G ]
Date: Sun, August 21, 2011 9:54 pm (answered 23 August 2011) Hello Orange, Thank you for helping to clear up why EAP the courts and others might be pushing people towards AA. Like so much of the stuff you say, it makes sense. Before I go any further I want to reemphasize that I'm one of those proponents of AA. It saved my ass and perhaps my life. I have no doubt whatever my life would be done or miserable without what I learned in AA. Like I said previously AA's statistics stink, but it worked for me. And since it worked for me I believe it can work for others too. I finally read your introduction today. Sounds like you came across at least one AA asshole early on. Not only was he an AA asshole but he held a position of authority, the "counselor" of your group in therapy. Mine never had a problem with drugs or alcohol. She didn't chop anyone off at the knees, but subtly moved the tone of the sessions to positive ways of viewing things. Not everyone in AA is an asshole. Not everyone thinks they must control every aspect of their sponcee's lives. I've heard of people telling others to get off antidepressants, of telling them to kick out the old lady and the kids, but those are the exceptions. They're sort of like your counselor.hooked on authority. I'm sorry to hear that your counselor was such a bad representation of something I believe to be good and full of good intentions and ideals. Do you have anything against my favorite quote it comes from p. 77 in the Big Book; "Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us."? It doesn't matter where we go we will run into people like that. They can be found in the corporate world, in government and even in organized religion. I've lived in Illinois all of my life. Take a look at the "records" of our governors over the past 40-50 years; I think at least five of them ended up in jail. I don't think you are being fair in saying AA is a cult, but it sure does get people's attention I'll bet. I've never been asked to give everything I own to AA, that I must pound on doors, hand out flowers or drink cool aide. If we had a cult wouldn't we have a living leader? Almost all the cults that come to my mind have had one. If you want to point out Bill Wilson he's been dead for nearly 40 years and not very many hold him in very high regard. His arrogance, conceit and hypocrisy are clearly visible to almost everyone who's been around for a while. No I haven't found anything in your papers where you have misquoted anything in the Big Book. Some of your opinions are skewed, however, based on the behaviors of a few assholes in and out of the program. What I was trying to point out to you was Mr. Wilson's tendency to exaggerate. In the foreword to the first edition he said "we are more than 100 men and women." That's his first exaggeration. It was actually less than 80. Then in the first chapter, Bill's story, on page 15 he says, "I've seen hundreds of families set on their feet." and in the same paragraph he says, "In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our families." It's jumped just a tad from the foreword. There are other similar examples contained in the book. As you already know, in many ways Bill was full of shit. In a way I feel like you are bashing me in your papers because when you bash AA, in a way you are bashing me. Like I said at the onset, it worked for me. It really doesn't matter that I'm in the minority. One other thing; I believe it could work for many more. Over two million worldwide ain't too shabby. How many can your other methods claim? Regards, Mike Hello Mike, Thanks for the letter. Starting at the top, I try very hard to not stereotype A.A. members. I never said that they are all bad or all crazy or all brainwashed. In fact, I have a mythical organization called the Newcomers Rescue League that consists of good people who go to A.A. meetings to save newcomers from bad sponsors. The big problem is that A.A. is fundamentally flawed as a cure for alcoholism or addiction or anything else. A.A. is just a recycled old pro-Nazi cult religion that Bill Wilson stole from Frank Buchman. The 12 Steps are about brainwashing new cult recruits, not about how to quit drinking. You asked if I had a problem with:
At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. Yes, I have a huge problem with that. When the judge sentences people to A.A. meetings, they are supposed to be going to a recovery group, not a religion. Bill Wilson was pulling another bait-and-switch trick there when he first declared that A.A. was for quitting drinking, and then he revealed that the real purpose was something else, like for people to be groveling servants in his favorite cult religion. Yes, my child-molesting counselor was a creep and a criminal. But he wasn't a rarity. Such things have turned out to be pretty commonplace. Did you read about the Midtown Group? How about Clancy's Pacific Group? When you say, "It doesn't matter where we go we will run into people like that," that is Minimization and Denial. Yes, there are creeps all over the world, but they are not supposed to be running the recovery programs and giving out bad medical advice, or forcing people to join their religion. I'm sure that you believe that A.A. saved your life. Otherwise, you wouldn't still be in it. But your fervent belief is only evidence that A.A. is good at brainwashing and fooling people, and making them believe irrational things, like that practicing an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties will make people quit drinking, and make them into good people, too. Your life was not saved by Alcoholics Anonymous or by the 12 Steps, or by reading the Big Book, or by A.A. meetings, or by an A.A. sponsor. What saved your life is you decided to quit drinking, and then you did it. The fact that you didn't do it before going to some A.A. meetings is irrelevant. (Of course you didn't quit before you quit. That's impossible.) I did the same thing too. When the pain got to be great enough, I decided that I had had it with dying from alcohol and tobacco, and I quit both.
One other thing; I believe it could work for many more. Over two million worldwide ain't too shabby. How many can your other methods claim? That is more evidence that A.A. is a cult. A.A. members constantly parrot those same lines, without any real thought or analysis behind the words. Look here and here.
Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** ** "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, ** but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling." ** == Dr. George E. Vaillant, formerly a member of the A.A. Board of ** Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics ** Anonymous, in "The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, ** and Paths to Recovery", Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, ** 1983, pages 283-286.
Last updated 8 March 2013. |
