Letters CXX
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For your web-sites, as you choose to use, or not. (I wonder why this MD can't explain what a "disease" is — even the MEDICAL ONES?).
Hello again, John, I notice that the good professor seems to be changing the definition of the word "addicted". He is using a meaning where if someone's brain is changed, then they are "addicted". I totally disagree, and think that the general medical community will also disagree. In the past, I was addicted to alcohol and tobacco for many years, like 20 for alcohol, and 30 for tobacco. As a result, my brain is permanently changed and I am hypersensitive to those two substances. If I consume even a little bit of them, I will soon become readdicted to them. But right there, the last sentence reveals that I am not NOW addicted. (How could I get readdicted if I am still addicted now?) In fact, I have not had a dose of either of those drugs in 8 1/2 years, so I am certainly not currently addicted to those drugs. I don't crawl the walls for another dose of those drugs; I don't crave them; in fact, I don't even think about them much, except for when I'm answering letters here. Nevertheless, I am sure that an MRI or CAT scan would show some funny effects on my brain from those 20 or 30 years of alcohol and tobacco. I know that I am still slowly recovering my memory — especially the short-term memory. It's pretty good now, but there is still room for improvement. I wonder who keeps on rewriting the definitions. That just confuses the issue. I also find this statement to be very strange, and flawed logic:
Substance use disorders in general, and the dependence particularly are chronic relapsing conditions. Just because some guys can't — or more accurately, don't want to — resist the temptation to return to getting high and partying some more does not mean that alcohol abuse is a "disease" that is a "chronic relapsing condition". There are certain kinds of incurable terminal constantly-recurring cancers that could be accurately labeled a "chronic relapsing condition", but I don't think that having fun partying until you get sick matches that description — especially not when there are people like me who just quit drinking, smoking, and drugging, and don't relapse. So obviously, the kind of "alcoholism" that I "got infected with" or "inherited" — or whatever happened — is not a "chronic relapsing condition". So I wonder what the professor would call my kind of chronically non-relapsing alcoholism (and nicotinism). Oh, and above, the professor was saying that people who haven't taken their drug of choice for years are still "addicted" to it. But how can people be "constantly relapsing" if they are still addicted all along? The goofy terminology and odd definitions need to be cleaned up, so that we can have sane and logical discussions, and not be talking at cross purposes. Thanks for the letters, and have a good day. Oh, by the way, I also got around to answering another of your letters, about genetics. It follows. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "We AA's have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically ** speaking it is not a disease entity." ** == Bill Wilson, ** speaking to the National Catholic Clergy Conference On Alcoholism. ** April 21, 1960, in New York City 
Hi Orange,
Looks like I finally found something on your site I am not in agreement with. You mentioned that your father was an alcoholic, and his mother before him. As the "by-product" of TWO alcoholics (one of whom drank herself TO DEATH-my biological mother), I am wondering. . . . where the hell is MINE??? I have had my "fair share" of encounters with alcohol (college drinking), and am NOT an "alcoholic". To the best of my knowledge, this "condition" called "alcoholism" just isn't "passed on genetically" like hair color, eye color, size of feet, shape of ears, or even TASTE PREFERANCES! I don't doubt that alcohol (and all other drugs!) affect different people in different manners (tolerance, and being under the influence- wise!), but to say that one is an alcoholic because one's parents/ grandparents, and other multiple family members were/are, feeds into AA's whole BS of "being powerless" over an inanimate drug that one CHOOSES TO USE! (James Frey nails this in his book, "A Million Little Pieces"-pp. 191-92). If someone ever "proves" the "genetic connection" that "causes addiction" to whatever substance (liquid, solid, or gas), I am sure they will win the Nobel Prize in Medicine! Until that time, I think it's just a bunch of "apologists" looking for the "excuse" to justify their own debacuherous conduct. After all, if you no longer use a substance, how can you be "addicted" to what you NO LONGER USE, or even be able to quit doing it?
Hope to hear back from you on this,
John Hi John, It's good to hear from you again. Sorry to take so long to answer; I'm way backlogged on email. The genetic factor is a curious one. First off, because it is genetic, it is hit-or-miss. You can have both an alcoholic mother and father, and not get the gene, by inheriting the non-alcoholic recessive genes of your parents. The gene (or rather, one of them) is reputedly dominant, which means that the non-alcoholic gene is masked. You and I agree that the genetics of alcoholism are not like eye color or hair color. Eye color is totally genetically determined. It doesn't matter whether your parents drink or pray or dance the polka: if you inherit a gene for blue eyes from each parent, you are going to have blue eyes. And if either parent gives you a gene for brown eyes, you will have brown eyes. Alcoholism isn't so simple. Not by a long shot. I think we agree that there is no gene that makes someone an alcoholic, with no choice in the matter. There seem to be at least two genes, perhaps several, that influence how people feel, and how they react to intoxication. And then there are the people who just refuse to drink alcohol. Often, children of alcoholics refuse to drink and die the way that a parent did. Again, there is no gene that takes away their choice in the matter. That creates the appearance that "alcoholism can skip a generation". What makes me strongly believe that there is a genetic component to "alcoholism" or "alcohol abuse" or "alcohol addiction" is seeing what happened in me. I am a text-book case of what I have heard described as "Type A" alcoholism — the late-starting middle-aged drinker, as was my father, and his mother before him. (Type B is the early-starting teenage alcoholic.) When I was a teenager, I didn't even like alcohol. I never drank it, unless the whole gang was going out and drinking. And I was living in Germany at the time, where the legal drinking age is 16, so we could all go downtown and drink beer or wine all we wanted. Well, I just didn't want it. Sometimes I'd have one glass of wine just to be drinking with everyone else. No more than that, ever. I didn't want it until I turned 29, and then something changed, and for the first time in my life, I suddenly liked coming home from work and having a beer. For the first time in my life, I would actually go and buy alcohol because I wanted to drink it. And mind you, those were some of the happiest days in my life. I had a happy family, a beautiful wife and a delightful son less than one year old, and a good job as a TV repairman, so there was no big tragedy in my life that was driving me to drink. Just the opposite. (Oh, and I wasn't smoking tobacco then either, or smoking pot, or taking anything.) Some biological clock ticked over, and I suddenly liked beer and I liked the alcohol buzz, which I had always disliked before. The rest is history. One beer after work turned into two, three, four, and kept going up, year after year, until it was killing me.
In the book SOS Sobriety, The Proven Alternative to 12-Step Programs by James Christopher, check out the interview with Kenneth Blum, titled "The Fickle Gene". Blum discovered one of the genes that appears to contribute to alcoholism, and perhaps also a tendency towards drug addiction.
Alcoholism and some other addictions and compulsions have in common the inability to achieve satisfaction from limited quantities of a pleasure stimulus. This inability, "reward deficiency syndrome," is hard-wired into the brain and appears to be linked to a genetic variation in the D2 receptor of chromosome 11.
And recently, an article stated that there is evidence that
"A Functional Neuropeptide Y Leu7Pro Polymorphism [is] Associated
With Alcohol Dependence in a Large Population Sample From the United
States". They say,
"This is only the second specific
genetic mechanism ever identified that modulates risk for alcohol
dependence."
(See: Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2002;59:825-831; I like that careful terminology: Modulates the risk for, not causes, alcohol dependence. I hope this sort of explains something. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Rule your desires or they will rule you.
Carmen liked me just fine, and we got along great, and she came back to me when she was rejected by the other geese, but she really wanted a goose mother and a bunch of little gosling brothers and sisters. She just wanted to be a goose and have a normal gosling childhood. When Carmen saw this family with five goslings, she ran off to join them. Here, she has just done an end run around the father, who saw her coming, and put his head down and gave her a glare and pointed his beak at her. The father is behind the mother, and has his head down. He gave Carmen a hard disapproving stare when he saw her coming, but he didn't bite her. Carmen ignored him and just ran around him and planted herself in the middle of the brood of goslings.
 Carmen running to join a family of goslings This family was surprisingly tolerant, and allowed Carmen to join in and play and eat with their children. Usually, broods don't mix, and the parents bite other parents' goslings and drive them away. But Carmen spent hours with this family, and for a while it was looking like they might adopt her. This family has 5 goslings that are noticeably older and larger than Carmen.  The mother goose is saying something to the goslings. Carmen is the small one in the middle. The expressions on the faces of the goslings are priceless. This warrants some magnification:
 The reactions of the goslings to whatever Mother is saying. Carmen is the small one.
 Carmen is the small gosling by the mother's head. Here, Carmen is trying to get into the mother's good graces. Carmen was constantly sidling up to the mother and trying to get the mother's approval and acceptance.
 An obnoxious kid mouths off. Carmen is the small one on the right who is getting yelled at.
I can't be sure, but I suspect that what that little guy was saying is, "Hey! You can't
have any of this bagel. You aren't our sister!"
[The story of Carmen continues here.]
It is amazing that you would take so much of your time and effort to disprove a method that has worked for so many. For you to even begin to see this organization as a cult is totally ludicrous. Truly, you don't know of many cults where you may come and go as you please. The 12 steps are suggestions. You talk about the horror stories of the program and the manipulations that Bill Wilson uses to lure people into a cultish program. What is the payoff? No one really gains anything except for a new way of living. Surely the Catholic church has something more going on for you to dip your mind into. Does the program work. Yes, the program works to help people not only achieve a alcohol free life, but mainly it helps people to achieve a new way of life based on spiritual principles. Now whats so wrong with that. No one is putting down those who can quit without the program. Its great that people can do that. Perhaps this program is for people who found that they can't quit without a program. One thing for sure, it works. And let me leave you with this. The 12 steps are guides to a new way of life. Much like the guidance that you get by going to church. It only mentions alcohol once. The true change is within the thinking process. For you to work so hard to disprove a program that works is, well,,,,,,,,, a lack of serenity. I hope that you find peace. Hello, Jaciti, Well, you have a bunch of the standard A.A. lies and propaganda lines and slogans in that letter. Unfortunately, none of them is true.
Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "AA certainly functions as a cult and systematically ** indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the ** world over." ** "...in the absence of proven scientific efficacy, ** critics are legitimate in suggesting that mandated AA ** attendance may be criticized as a failure of proper ** separation between church and state." ** == A.A. Trustee Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant, ** The Natural History Of Alcoholism Revisited, page 266.
Hi Agent Orange, Glad to see you are back online and answering emails. I really have gotten a lot from your writings. Next week I will have 18 years sober. I have pretty much weaned myself off of AA over the past few months and haven't died yet (although I plan to do so sometime in the future). After reading your essay regarding the links between Fascism and the Oxford Group, I became interested in obtaining some actual correspondence between Frank Buchman and Heinrich Himmler. I thought I had found something promising when I picked up a used copy of a book called Reichsführer: Briefe an und von Himmler (Letters to and from Himmler). I found that the letters therein mainly have to do with Himmler's duties as SS leader. A lot of the correspondence has to do with mundane administrative matters, various decrees and directives, and other issues, not to mention all the planning involved in the wholesale annihilation of Jews, homosexuals, Communists, and sundry dissidents. I did find a few interesting letters in which Himmler had alcoholic SS members arrested, stripped of position, and forced into detox cures. In one instance he ordered an underling to stay sober until the end of 1944 (the letter was written in May of that year). The most interesting letter I found concerns the imprisonment of an alcoholic Nazi in the Dachau concentration camp on grounds of "conduct unbecoming of a Nazi" (those are my words, based on the translation of the German letter I did):
Anyway, good to see that forced attendance in "rehabs" is not a thoroughly American phenomenon. Kind regards, Mike Hi Mike, Thanks for the letter. First off, let me congratulate you on your 18 years of health and sanity. And then thanks for the history. Not entirely coincidentally, I was watching a video that I downloaded from the Internet a while ago (whose name I can't remember at the moment), that was about the infighting at the highest levels of the Nazi Party. Heinrich Himmler was vicious as he clawed his way to the top. In the beginning, before Himmler became the Police Chief of all of Germany, and head of the S.S., Himmler's main rival was the Chief of Police of Prussia. Remember that Himmler was the Chief of Police of Bavaria at that early time. Neither was inherently the Chief of the civilian police of the entire country, but Himmler wanted to be that Chief. When one of the protegés of a rival drank too much, Himmler exploited that weakness to discredit the fellow and ruin his career. And yes, he sent those unfortunate fellows to Dachau. It really is downright bizarre, how such men could demand "high moral standards" and sobriety from others as they shoved millions of Jews, Priests, ministers, political dissidents, gypsies and gays into the concentration camps and gas chambers. But, like Paul Diener remarked, Naziism was another "spiritual health and purity movement". Look here and especially here and here. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "To win the sympathy of the masses, you must tell them the ** crudest and most stupid lies." ** == Adolf Hitler
Dear Orange,
Please check out this link. I was wondering if you knew anything about this? They claim a 84.4% success rate. Seems mighty high to me. Yet, the fact that they seem to be anti-AA may mean they are on to something. Your comments sir?
Thanks, Please with-hold email address and just use my first name if you publish. Hello Christopher, We were just talking about Passages of Malibu a little while ago. It's the luxurious, super-expensive rehab resort where all of the movie stars go. Their real success rate seems to be no higher than any other treatment or rehab center. Watch out for the wording and terminology: Rehab centers almost invariably brag about what percentage of their graduates are sober for maybe one month following graduation. They don't tell you what percentage of the incoming patients actually last until graduation. The habitual relapsers don't "graduate". And the rehab/treatment centers never do long-term follow-ups, to see how many of their graduates are still clean and sober a year or more after treatment. So it's all just a fake-out numbers game where they are decieving you with half-truths and weasel words. Check out this link, here, and especially look at the second letter, for more about Passages. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Humans always do the most intelligent thing after every ** stupid alternative has failed. ** == R. Buckminster Fuller
Dude,
congratualtions!! Hello Brian, Thanks for the sarcasm. That's also listed in the standard propaganda techniques, here. Now, if you can stop being sarcastic for a minute, would you like to tell us what the actual A.A. success rate is?
Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later? (HINT: the answers are here. Alcoholics Anonymous is worse than useless when it doesn't sober up any more alcoholics than does giving alcoholics no help at all. Have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep ** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol, ** and that your will power is useless, is not ** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged. ** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.
You're just another religious looney who needs a life. AA works for those who work it and the Steps work.
It doesn't matter what you say as you'll remain in your clueless
religious fog of hate and judgment. All you say about Bill is just a reflection of your own self hatred. Everyone can see this — just read the answers to your pathetic reviews on Amazon. Well, hello "black bear hollow", That is a demonstration of several of the standard cult attack and debating techniques: starting with word games like "AA works for those who work it", which isn't true at all. Alcoholics Anonymous merely appears to work okay if the alcoholics will kindly quit drinking by using their own will power, and then give the credit to A.A. Since you think that A.A. really works and does something good, would you like to tell us what the actual A.A. success rate is?
Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later? (HINT: the answers are here. Then of course you have to launch a couple of personal attacks because you have no facts to speak of.
And I find it funny that you accuse me of being a religious looney.
Your fellow A.A. members often call me an atheist when I won't agree with
their childish superstitions. Why don't you guys get together
and decide which it is, am I a fundamentalist Bible-beater or an atheist?
Then of course there is the
Minimization and Denial:
"Bill Wilson is irrelevant. His personal crimes don't matter." And then you end the letter by using the propaganda technique of "Everybody Knows, and Everybody Says", as in, "Everyone can see this..." The fact that some A.A. promoters disagreed with me on Amazon proves nothing except that some A.A. promoters disagreed with me on Amazon. Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. ** You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful ** to take the bait." ** Bill Wilson describing early recruiting efforts for Alcoholics Anonymous, ** at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.
Thank you for the article. I had resolved my drinking habits 28 years ago. Now I am a person displaying "Dry Drunk" behavior according to a divorcing wife in her appeals to her friends for speaking my mind on matters concerning spousal issues with our 17 yr old son. I began to feel as though she may be right. As an agnostic, I had problems with AA some thirty years ago and was considered "Not willing to change". Your article has helped me put this accusation into perspective.
Regards, Hello Don, Thanks for the letter. Sorry to hear about your troubles, but I'm glad that you were able to benefit from my web site in some way. So have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Self-appointed do-gooders arrogantly imagine that they ** have some God-given right to tell others what they should ** or shouldn't think, and how they should or shouldn't live.
Hello A, I would be interested to know your interpretation of "Thirteenth Stepping". When asked why he doesn't seek a sober girlfriend, my "true believer" friend "admits" that he cannot date "one of those girls" in AA. He says it is because they may relapse and he does not want to handle that (there's a guy who is practicing the 12th, huh?). I think it is because of the 13th. And curiously, why is the 13th not listed?? Hmm. To me, that just does not make any sense. If you claim to live a sober lifestyle than why not seek other sober people to have relationships with. Especially intimate ones. After all a true believer claims no one understands him but his AA family or another drunk. Being an ex Moonie, I do understand, even though he claims I do not. I just don't agree. Now I am "one of those people". :o) Thank you. jls
P.S. Cute note: He believes Bill W. is a Saint. For real. And when I
debate Bill's "character defects" I am told to read Ch. 7 We Agnostics. Hello Jonna, Thanks for the letter. The only interpretation of 13th-Stepping that I have is that I thought it really referred to an old-timer taking advantage of newcomers, like an older male sponsor teaching the 12 Steps to a young woman newcomer, and then he takes her into the bedroom and teaches her the 13th Step. I never considered an honest love affair between equals to be "13-Stepping". Indeed, if "The Program" really works, then what better spouse to choose than another sober person from A.A.? Ah, but the program doesn't really work, and your friend knows it (even if he denies that fact out loud), so your friend was wise and perceptive to refuse to choose a partner from within Alcoholics Anonymous. I would also be very reluctant to choose a mate from the ranks of A.A., for much the same reasons. I have enough problems already. Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet." ** == Saint Augustine (354—430)
I have read your article and I am curious if
Regards Hello Bob, Thanks for the letter. I was an alcoholic, but it is debateable whether I am one now. It depends on your definition of the word "alcoholic". We have discussed this before, several times, so I won't repeat it yet again. I'll just refer you to the various definitions of the word "alcoholic", here I recognize the phrase "a personal faith in God" as code words that are used by some sects to mean that you have bought into a standard package of beliefs and superstitions. The answer to that is, "No, I haven't drank the koolaid, and I haven't bought into any standard package." Now I have a lot of faith in God. I can see that God is working very hard to keep the Law of Gravity working right. And He has the electromagnetic forces tuned nicely too, thank you. And the strong and weak nuclear forces are doing well. All kinds of things are working properly due to His engineering. But if you were to ask me whether God really cares if the Pharoah enslaves the Israelites, or whether Joe Blow is screwing his secretary, my answer is, "I don't think so. God seems to be very busy on higher planes." Likewise, I don't expect God to give special favors to members of Christian churches while rejecting Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, Jews, and Native Americans. And I really don't expect God to give any special favors to members of Alcoholics Anonymous because those people drank too much alcohol and then started practicing Buchmanism. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is ** the only animal that has the True Religion — several of them. He is ** the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his ** throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the ** globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to ** happiness and heaven. == Mark Twain
Hi Orange, Thank you for your website and all of the hard research you've done on AA and it's cult affiliations. The information you have diligently put together has set me free. I've been in AA for 3 years and I am delighted that what I saw in AA wasn't all just in my head!
Thank you, Hi Meg, Thanks for the thanks. I'm glad to hear that you benefitted from the web site. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today ** == James Dean
Orange Boy , How's that for spirituality orange boy, Thank You, Roy R Hello Roy, I'm not bored, not at all. I find life very interesting. And I'm not having any trouble staying sober. It's been 8 1/2 years now. But I do also hope that I get laid soon. Carmen is the best girl I've had in bed in the last month. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons — ** for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
That must have took a lot of time and effort on your part. Thank you for that. I went to AA about 6 years ago, followed these "contradictions" Bill Wilson conjured up and havent had a drink since.. My life has become increasingly better, each year it seems to get better. I have reformed relationships with friends and familly. It has trully changed my life for the better. This is the same for millions more around the world. I understand you are just trying to inform people of your belief and point of view on this, but I must ask why? Why is it that a fellowship such as alcoholics anonymous that helps so many ppl rebuild their lifes for better upsets you so much. And While Im still in the middle of your write up, Im curious as to your suggestion to me, or someone like me to stop drinking? This must be for free, as I can go to AA for free.. I am a convicted felon, I have been arrested as a result of alcohol and drugs over 20 times, I have had 2 DUI's and alcohol related car crashes. Would you prefer I didn't go to AA and remained driving around on the same streets as your familly? Thanks for your inpupt. Brian Hello Brain, Thanks for the letter. I am glad to hear that you are doing well. Congratulations on your sobriety. Congratulations for saving your own life. Nobody else did it for you. You are mistaken on the arithmetic though, when you say that A.A. has helped or saved "millions more around the world." That number is off by a few million. The claim that A.A. has saved the lives of millions of alcoholics is the standard "Big Lie" of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is the biggest lie that they tell. The real number that A.A. has saved is approximately zero. I was just answering the same statement a few letters ago, so I'll refer you to that discussion, here And we were talking at length about what works, and what really helps alcoholics, just a little while ago, so I'll refer you to that discussion, here. As far as your attempt at debating by asking if I would "prefer [you] didn't go to AA and remained driving around on the same streets as your familly", that is bad logic. I would prefer that you do something that actually works, and actually helps alcoholics to get a grip and live a healthier lifestyle, and don't drive drunk any more. A.A. does not do that. A.A. kills more alcoholics than it saves, and A.A. does not work to sober up the alcoholics. And that is why I criticize it. Have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, ** but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling." ** == Dr. George E. Vaillant, currently a member of the A.A. Board of ** Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics ** Anonymous, in The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, ** and Paths to Recovery, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, ** 1983, pages 283-286.
Last updated 19 January 2013. |
