Letters CCCXXXVIII
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Date: Mon, January 7, 2013 12:51 am (Answered 9 January 2013) Orange, 10 min into scanning your site and I just want to say THANK YOU for having the chutz to air AA's filthy f'in laundry! I have a son with a 9-year "sober" AA liar whom I was with and conned by for three years. He went from drunken Wall Street crack and cokehead to reformed addiction therapist as well as now a damn clinical director of a rehab, often referring to himself as a "local legend in the recovery circuit". We met while I was an escort. He was my regular, of course, and remains a compulsively lying, pack a day smoking, escort mongering, NSAID-dependent, recovery "hero". Fancy that. Btw- I've been to several Al-Anon meetings and even got a sponsor, but stopped attending when I finally had that WTF moment where I realized I was being brainwashed to believe a fact you stated in an article about Al-Anon members needing to become understanding and take care of the "ex-boozer" forever. I just tried to join your group on FB, and am going to join the forum in a bit. Thanks again, for being truly "honest and transparent", it's refreshing! Camille Sent from my iPhone Hello Camille, Thanks for the story. It is appalling, isn't it, that such guys are considered qualified rehab counselors and even directors? Such quackery. And such people actually get paid with our tax dollars, in various city, state, and Federal programs for rehabilitating alcoholics and drug addicts. And then those frauds suck even more money out of health insurance programs and run up the costs of health care until some impoverished Grandma can't get her prescriptions filled. That happened here in Oregon. Various drug and alcohol "treatment centers" were getting paid $1700 per person for pure fraud — 12-Step quackery that didn't work at all, until the Oregon Health Plan went broke, and then really poor, desperate sick people couldn't get their medications. I'm glad to hear that you are free now. So have a good day and a good life. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** A.A. quackery, straight from the horse's mouth: ** "I have no doubt that a man who has cured himself of the lust for alcohol ** has a far greater power for curing alcoholism than has a doctor." ** == William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 320. 
Date: November 27, 2012 at 2:07pm (Answered 9 January 2013) So I criticized aa and 12 step programs and tried to help my fiancé recognize the fact that she was the reason she quit and informed her of what I thought of her program. I believe she ran to her flunkies and they informed her that I was a bad influence and she needed to leave a stable man who found his own power and ability to not drink. She is now more unstable and is involved with many different men both in the program and out, making decisions which adversely effect her life as well as her children's. I believe in free speech but 12 step programs are predatory groups and should, if not be outlawed, then come with a warning label such as:
Thank you AA for stealing my life from me with your bullshit facade of morality. You robot fuck bags eat shit and die. Thank you. Rant over. Hello Robert, Thanks for the post. Have a good day now, if that is possible. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by ** its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which ** blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ** == Dresden James
Date: Tue, January 8, 2013 10:20 pm (Answered 11 January 2013) Why do you waste your time on this crap? You distort things. AA is OK. It does help people. What have you done lately to help people? Hello Peter, Thanks for the questions. I do the Orange Papers web site to get the truth out. No, I don't distort things, and A.A. is not okay, and A.A. does not help people. You should look at the doctors' reports of what A.A. really does to people. They found that A.A. actually:
And in addition, there is plenty more evidence that:
That isn't good. And how could it be otherwise? How could the practices of an oppressive old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties really be the cure for substance abuse problems? Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** Spiritual quackery: ** God wants you to bleed your patients. God wants you to take a sharp razor, ** and open a vein in the patient, and bleed out those bad humors. ** Oh, and don't give your patients any medications. Trust God to heal them. ** It's spiritual, not religious.
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Brian_M ]
Date: Tue, January 8, 2013 9:36 pm (Answered 11 January 2013) Orange I appreciate the response. What is your take on the solution to alcoholism? I did not read your thoughts on it. How do you see the problem and what in your opinion is the solution? I think we are in an age where the thinking seems to be shifting on this issue. Thanks Brian Sent from my iPhone Hello Brian, Thanks for the question. I answered that one at length here: How did you get to where you are? That answer also includes links to lists of discussions where a variety of people talked about what helped them, and what works, and also links to the other sobriety organizations and methods like SMART and SOS. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** No "treatment" works on people who don't want to quit. ** "No treatment" works on people who do want to quit.
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Oleh_D ]
Date: Wed, January 9, 2013 9:30 am (Answered 11 January 2013) Wow. I get the A clockwork orange connection. Is that what you propose? Why such a stick up your butt vs aa? One reason recidivism increased in aa is that not everyone in aa should be in aa: courts put them there, guys out to get women/ guys, women out to get guys/ women.... How did you stop drinking? Dr. Oleh D. Sent from my iPad. Hello again, Oleh, Thanks for the questions. I don't get the "Clockwork Orange" connection. I never mentioned or suggested that. The movie A Clockwork Orange described a society where violent criminals were tortured with aversion therapy until they were so freaked out that they were incapable of committing another violent crime. I never described or suggested any such treatment of alcoholics or drug addicts. Personally, I got some aversion therapy from just getting sick from alcohol too many times. Now I have an aversion to getting poisoned that way again. But that sure isn't like the movie A Clockwork Orange. I am opposed to A.A. because it is harmful quack medicine, not a treatment for "alcoholism" or addictions. It's also a very dishonest lying cult religion that kills more people than it saves. The recidivism rate in A.A. now is pretty much the same as it was in the beginning. A.A. was always a great failure. Cult religion just doesn't work as medical treatment. When he wasn't lying about what a great success A.A. was, Bill Wilson revealed the truth:
At first nearly every alcoholic we approached began to slip, if indeed he sobered up at all. Others would stay dry six months or maybe a year and then take a skid. This was always a genuine catastrophe. At a memorial service for Dr. Bob, Bill Wilson actually bragged about the pathetically low success rate of the whole A.A. program. (Bill was making himself out to be a long-suffering hero, working tirelessly to promote Alcoholics Anonymous.) Bill described the early days of A.A. this way:
You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait.
You can read much more about the failure rate of A.A. in the early days here:
How I stopped drinking is described in a bunch of places:
Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence ** over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." ** == Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, January 11, 2013 2:17 pm (Answered 14 January 2013) I read your papers and couldn't help wondering why your so angry. Was one of your parents an alcoholic? Anyhow iv been sober in AA for along time & pride myself with being relaxed with all new people who come into our programme. But I guess my experience dosnt count, as I'm sober & full of well being, happiness & hope. Il make a point of not offering any of that to anyone else- on your recomendation. Cheers jim Hello Jim, I'm not all that angry. If you want to see angry, you should read the messages on my forum from some of the people who wasted 10 or 20 years in A.A. Now those people are really angry about how they were deceived for so long. In comparison, I am merely irritated and annoyed at the presistence of fraud and quack medicine. Yes, one of my parents was an alcoholic. If you want my history, it's all there:
It's wonderful that you are sober and happy. Congratulations for choosing to quit drinking, and then having the determination and will power and self-reliance to really do it. Of course your favorite cult religion had nothing to do with it. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep ** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol, ** and that your will power is useless, is not ** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged. ** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.
Date: Sat, January 12, 2013 1:26 am (Answered 14 January 2013) Interesting way to become self-righteous...... Put down the man trying to help himself.. Spiritually Lives.... But then, I guess, so does Narcissism .. You've found one, now I hope you find the other.. Jim Hello Jim, Wrong, totally wrong. That wasn't even a good attempt at character assassination. I have never put down the people who are struggling to break out of addictions and bad habits and improve their lives. Never. I challenge you to find even one example of that. On the contrary, I'm quite interested in helping them. What I criticize are frauds and con artists and fake holy men who are practicing medicine without a license, foisting the practices of an old pro-Nazi cult religion on sick people and lying to them and saying that "the program" works great. The rest of your message is pretty incoherent. "Spiritually Lives"? You have an adverb and a verb, but no subject. Are you trying to say that "spirituality lives"? That would be an interesting slogan, a cute battle cry, but untrue. "Spirituality" does not eat or breath or have sex and reproduce, so it does not live. Neither does narcissism. Now there is such a thing as spirituality, and Alcoholics Anonymous sure isn't it. Want to try again? Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. ** When all you have is a cult religion, everything looks like a ** spiritual problem.
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Noel ]
Date: Sat, January 12, 2013 5:19 am (Answered 14 January 2013) Not only did the Catholic Church proscribe its adherants from belonging to the Oxford Group (the template for AA and the other 12-step movements) twice, it actually had and still has an abstinence based movement of its own. This movement was founded in Ireland in 1898, so it comfortably predates AA. It is called the Pioneer total abstinent association and this association mentions precious little about steps. I believe it is also found in the USA. I wonder why it is very passive about promoting its own policy for abstinence yet alone why is it standing by and passively accepting a programme (AA) which is at variance with its own teachings. Hello Noel, Thanks for the information. I had not heard of the "Pioneer Total Abstinent Association" before. I shall have to search and investigate and learn more. I don't know why the Catholic recovery groups don't do more to publicize themselves. There are also the Calix and the St. Vincent DePaul organizations, and they run some recovery programs and facilities, but do very little publicity. In fact, I can't recall having heard any. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** ...and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. ** == Matthew 24:11
Date: Sat, January 12, 2013 4:23 pm (Answered 14 January 2013) I am researching the Alcoholics Anonymous book as I am taking several people through a 12 step workshop using the Alcoholics Anonymous book as a textbook. Everywhere is says to do something, (e.g. ask, pray, write, make amends, consider, make a decision, make a list, tell some one else, etc.) we will do so. Why would some one do such a thing you might wonder? What do we have to lose? As an experiment? How will doing all of the actions outlined in the book in the first 103 pages possibly change much of anything, let alone our lives? In any case I came across your site once again and now see how important the work you do is. What I now believe is that all paths originate from and return to the same place. That place for me can only be experienced deep down within. It has only been by continued efforts to lay aside prejudice, search fearlessly and diligently within and adopt an attitude of open mindedness that I have become free and a willing to be proved wrong, and interested in the search for truth, peace and joy. In the words of Dr. Silkworth, "I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray." I would love to read your experience with the experiment of using the book Alcoholics Anonymous, without the cult of AA, on your own, outside of AA meetings and sponsorship, doing as precisely as possible, the actions (verbs) explained all throughout the first 103 pages. Could be an interesting challenge. Wishing you health and happiness in 2013, Bryce Hello Bryce, Thanks for the letter. That certainly sounds like an interesting experiment. Personally, I think it would be highly unethical, knowing what I know, but an interesting experiment in the Dr. Mengele sense of the word. The whole Big Book is just Bill Wilson's copy of Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion, with some testimonials added in back. The 12 Steps that Bill Wilson wrote down are just Dr. Frank Buchman's Oxford Group cult recruiting and indoctrination practices. They are not good. They do not have good effects on people. They induced nervous breakdowns in the followers of Buchmanism back in the nineteen-thirties:
I'm sure that you are capable of realizing that the results of Chinese Communist brainwashing were not good. But it will still be a very interesting experiment. Care to write up the results? Especially please keep track of the suicides, divorces, mental breakdowns, relapses, and things like that. And please pay attention to both the success stories, and the drop-outs and burn-outs and disillusioned people, and other cases like that. It would also be good to compare all of your cases — both the successes and the failures — to another group of similar alcoholics who get no 12-Step treatment at all. Oh, and of course no excuses or qualifiers are allowed, like
Everybody counts. No excuses allowed. These are rather vague, sweeping statements:
What I now believe is that all paths originate from and return to the same place. That place for me can only be experienced deep down within. The line that "all paths originate from and return to the same place" is one of those pseudo-spiritual sayings that made the fake holy men of the 'sixties so irritating. That is actually a meaningless statement. It sounds like it means something, but it doesn't. (But it sounded good enough to elicit some donations from the suckers.) A friend of mine coined a term for such talk back in the early 'seventies: "Cosmidelic Bullshit". That is talk that sounds all cosmic and psychedelic and spiritual, but it is bullshit.
How about these generalizations? Aren't sweeping generalities, based on no facts at all, such a bitch? Well, let's see: The one place that every path and everything originated from and may return to is the Singularity that existed before the Big Bang. Whether we will all return there depends on whether gravity can overcome the outward expansion of the Universe. But there is new evidence that the expansion of the Universe is increasing and accelerating, not slowing down. Maybe we won't ever return to the Singularity. Maybe the Universe will just keep on expanding forever, in which case the future is going to be very strange, and very dark, and very, very, spaced out. If you mean some enlightened spiritual place like Heaven where we all return to dissolve in loving bliss, I don't know if I really like the sounds of that either. I don't really want to get all loving and close and chummy with the remains of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung for all eternity. And if those guys go to the same place as me, no matter what they did and no matter what I do, then what's the point of being good? What does it matter? Be really, really good and you can end up being the bedmate of Jeffrey Dahmer and Theodore Bundy, forever? Do I have a choice? What if I'm not so good? Can I go someplace else? By the way, there is zero evidence that practicing the 12 Steps and the other garbage in the Big Book will get people to Heaven or some enlightened serene spiritual state of mind. Again, the real effects of the 12 Steps are to induce feelings of guilt, powerlessness, inadequacy, fear, self-doubt, and dependency. That isn't spirituality or enlightenment. I don't put any stock in the scribblings of Dr. Silkworth. He was a quack who poisoned people with belladonna, and then endorsed cult religion as a cure for a "disease". I also wish you health and happiness in 2013. And have a good day. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** Spiritual Consumerism ** Spiritual experience and goods can certainly reinforce a consuming mind, ** too, and it is no surprise to see this happening in a consumer culture. ** Marketers are successfully targeting spiritual consumers as a market niche ** and figuring out exactly what fulfills their self-centered yearnings. ** How many of these products are necessary for spiritual enlightenment? ** Probably not one. ** == Stephanie Kaza, "Ego in the Shopping Cart" ** http://www.tricycle.com/ego-shopping-cart ** Daily Dharma, November 23, 2012
Date: Wed, January 23, 2013 3:52 pm (Answered 25 January 2013) Hi all! Please see article below. I am sending it to all who I know care and can help spread the news. It is proving difficult to find a major news publication with the moxie to publish this most important information. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you to JR Harris for posting it on orange papers. [forum] Laura T. Begin forwarded message:
Hello Laura, Thanks for information. That tragic and appalling story really is a spectacular example of the kind of bad "help" that people can get in "the rooms" of A.A. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * ** ** Therefore we [AA] have the full benefits of the murderous ** political dictatorships of today but none of their liabilities. ** Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, pages 105—106. ** The full benefits of murderous dictatorships? ** What benefits? Benefits for whom? ** And what liabilities of murderous dictatorships does ** Alcoholics Anonymous not have?
So I had to leave a comment:
With 20-20 hindsight, after I had time to read Jock_M's post at length, I realized that he is probably in Australia, not Canada. And it was 5 faked papers, not 4. My goof. Oh well, if that's the biggest mistake that I make in the web site, then I'm doing great.
Date: Sun, January 20, 2013 6:29 pm (Answered 25 January 2013) First, I would really like to commend you for all you have done to expose the 12step cult for what it is and the damage it does to people, Its a real tragedy that its tentacles have spread so wide not just in the US, but world wide as well. I was involved off and on for many years and saw a lot of creepy shit go down and always felt uneasy about it all. I worked the Steps twice only to relapse, and just going to meetings made me want to drink or use, I have seen many mention this and My personal belief is there are powers of Spiritual darkness behind it all. There are a few good people in AA/NA, but the majority are very twisted people in one way or another, It's a breeding ground for sociopaths as far as I'm concerned, a direct result of its teachings. I can also spot a Stepper very quickly, just from their demeanor and what they say as well also. Your site blew it all away and you have my thanks. I went to SOS and studied Peele's books, and got things right more or less. My story is long so I'll leave it at that..
A word about
Celebrate Recovery/Saddleback... I have been going to CR meetings lately. It's been a
rough time recently and I want the support and SOS is kinda far from me. I'm not a
Super devout Christian, but a Christian I am (even tho I can act the devil
sometimes ;) and over the years have studied a LOT about Church History, Doctrine,
and of course Scripture, CR is just 12step ideology couched in Christian terms,
Apparantly John Baker, unhappy with Steppers undisguised hatred and contempt of
Christians (well DUH Baker, Its a false gospel/cult, thats why) rather than
creating a TRULY Christian based program basically took AA's heretical teachings,
and transferred them to the Church, via the influence of Rick Warren amoung
Evangelical churches. Even cravenly paraphrasing and twisting Scripture to fit AA
dogma/slogans. A good analysis from a Christian perspective is here The author expresses his concern as well that AA adherants will take over CR groups, and that is exactly the case in most of the local CR groups where I live, as I said I can spot them about 10 sec. after they open their slogan-spewing mouths. They may claim to be Christians, that's not for me to judge ultimately, but they have embraced a BIG lie, and ultimately bad teachings are damaging in the long run whether one is a Christian or not. The concept of "Codependency" is a prime example of this, I have seen this turn women into heartless, domineering, disrespectful pigs, with no regard or respect for the men in their life, and mentally castrated hubby goes right along with it.... This comes from AA and nowhere else, truly a poisonous concept that just about every woman in CR claims to be. I'm making a stronger effort to get to SOS, I have found more REAL tolerance and respect for different recovery paths amoung the mostly Atheists/ Agnostics there than the arrogant swine at 12step groups, and I'm sick of hearing AA dogma and slogans in a supposedly "Christian" setting. Anyway, thanks again for all the painstaking research and getting this Info to the larger public, your site has really put a bug up the collective butt of steppers and shown many the light, for this you are to be commended. And oh yeah, I'd like to ask you not to post my last name or E-address if you can, I don't put anything past these creeps based on my experience... BLESSINGS ! Hello Michael,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments.
I have to agree with you. I wrote a whole file about how
A.A. religious teachings are heretical, here: I also find that there is some real darkness in A.A. and its 12-Step brethren. I joke about A.A. being like selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety, but it isn't entirely a joke. It's kinda like "kidding on the square". There is something very wrong with a "spiritual program" where people promise to hide the truth and deceive the newcomers and only dole out the truth by "teaspoons, not buckets." About spotting a Stepper very quickly: Yes, and they can spot us too, by how we don't sling the slogans and parrot the dogma right. Nearly 12 years ago, when I went to an A.A. meeting to pick up my 6-month coin, I shared about how good it felt to be healthy and recovering, especially since I had quit both alcohol and tobacco together, so I had six months of healthy recovery from both. I got subtle frowns because my sharing wasn't negative enough, and I didn't confess and wallow in guilt and talk about how stupid and selfish I was. One of the oldtimers attached himself to me, and after the meeting, we stood in the parking lot while he blew smoke in my face as he chain-smoked and tried to recruit me as one of his sponsees. He knew right away that I didn't have a sponsor, and wasn't "working the Steps" right, just from how I talked, because I wasn't negative enough, and I didn't parrot slogans, and I didn't give all of the credit for my sobriety to A.A. Oh yes, he knew. Then he described how he made his sponsees work the Steps: "We don't waste any time on Steps 1 through 3. I get them started on Step 4 right away." Oh yeh, get them busy making lists of what is wrong with themselves right away. That is dark. Fortunately, I had the good sense to pass on his invitation.
I agree that the concept of "Codependency" is some strange kind of insanity.
You become infected with a "spiritual disease" from living with an alcoholic, and that
makes you into a bad person, and the only cure is to join a cult religion and constantly
confess your sins? Nuts. I discussed that in the file on Snake Oil:
And the way that Al-Anon puts women down and labels them oppressive bitches is really over the top.
There are some examples of that here: I have commented a few times that I think that Rick Warren is making a big mistake when he imagines that he can adapt the 12 Steps and make them into a Christian program. The 12 Steps and all of the A.A. practices and theology in the Big Book are merely Dr. Frank Buchman's heretical occult religion, dressed up in a different suit of clothes. As William Playfair asked, if the 12 Steps are based on the Bible, why is it necessary to change and adapt them to make them compatible with a Christian program? Dr. Frank Buchman took just one line out of the Book of James and twisted it into justifying a confessional cult religion where people regularly go to meetings and publicly confess all of their worst sins:
"Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Notice that James did not say that the confessions should be a big public ceremony where everybody hears everybody else's dirty laundry. The line actually says, "one to another", not one to a crowd. "One to another", like someone confessing to a person whom he has harmed. The early Christian Church quickly learned that public confessions were a big mistake — they just educated the children in what to do for some kinky fun, and explicit sexual confessions were offensive and embarrassing to the older people. It was sort of like go to church and get your dose of pornography for the week. And then there is the problem of people becoming jaded from hearing about sins all of the time. They begin thinking, "Everybody is doing it, so it's no big deal..." And then people took pride in their sins: "My sins were much bigger and more outrageous than your wimpy-ass little sins." So the Church banned public confessions, and declared that confessions must be made to the priest in private. Then, 1700 years later, Frank Buchman came along and revived the mistake. In addition, Dr. Frank Buchman didn't even have one line from the Bible that justified conducting séances — which he called "Quiet Times". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can hear the Voice of God or Jesus and get instructions and answers and work orders and power from On High if you just sit quietly and listen. Quite the opposite. When the Pharisees demanded that Jesus show them a miracle, and demanded to see signs from Heaven, Jesus called them evil. As a contemporary journalist, Marjorie Harrison, wrote: "Dr. Buchman has no authority whatever for his doctrine of direct guidance available at any moment." In addition, Frank Buchman's followers, including Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, also claimed to be contacting other spirits and ghosts and even demons, for entertainment. The Old Testament declares that mediums who channel spirits and communicate with the dead must be put to death. So much for A.A. Step 11. I've also noticed that you will have far better luck getting the truth out of the atheists than out of the true believers. Funny how that works. Have a good day now. == Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info * * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking * * http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ * * ** Just because people say that they are working for a good cause ** does not make them good people. Remember that both the Nazis ** and the Communists were "working for good causes." ** So was the Medieval Catholic Church that burned girls and men ** to death at the stake for "witchcraft" and "heresy", ** while the Pope sold indulgences and Bishops' offices. ** And they all still claimed that they were trying to get people ** into Heaven — their kind of heaven, some kind of heaven, a ** "Worker's Paradise", or a "Third Reich", or a "Celestial Kingdom".
Last updated 22 March 2013. |
